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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 2:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Slipknot!

I don't post here very often but some of you may recall that I've been listening to the GD archive in chronological order. After nearly 11 months, I've reached 7/25/74. (And the last couple of months listening to the creative peak that was '73 and '74 has warped my fragile little mind). One of the interesting things about listening chronologically is really getting a good understanding of how songs evolved. A case in point is how St. Stephen never really went away - the jam was just incorporated into GSET and continued to morph into something else altogether. Right now, I'm really fascinated by the incubation of Slipknot! as it seems to have grown out of a theme that Jerry played in the Eyes jam a few times. It's incorporated into Dark Star on 7/25/74 and leads into Stella Blue, a song much different from Franklin's Tower. I have to wonder if Help on the Way wasn't written specifically as a vehicle to lead into Slipknot! since Slip clearly preceded the creation of Help and Frank. I think I've also heard the transtion jam to Fire on the Mountain develop once or twice in the '74 Scarlets but it didn't yet have a song to go into so it just resolved itself.

OK, I'll stop now before you think I'm a complete nutcase but I'd like to know if there are any songs in particular that you think developed in unexpected ways. Thanks.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I've noticed several themes from Blues for Allah in '74. Recently I noticed nice 2 nice Playing-s and a Dark Star.

Can't remember exactly which shows right now but I was listening to May 15+19 and July 19 among others. I'll backtrack before I lose the connection.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Nov 9, 2007 5:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I mentioned a Dark Star with Slipknot, and of course it was 7/25/74 -- which I had laying around from the Taper's Section.

The Playing in the Bandz were:
Playing In The Band 7/19/74 (also from the Taper's Section)
gd74-10-16_13 Playin' in the Band

A friend said that that many '73 Dark Stars featured Slipknot jams too.

Yes, great thread. More disjointed but wide-ranging thematically, GD recombinant do-re-me also seems to be at work in 1-2-70's Dark Star > St. Stephen > 11 > Lovelight.

I like it when it's deja vu all over again!



This post was modified by spacedface on 2007-11-10 01:46:42

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Nov 8, 2007 3:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I heard the same thing with Scarlet and posted about it a couple months ago:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/post-view.php?id=147862

Also agree about slipknot! although yesterday I listened to 11/7/69 and as one of the reviewers points out there is a hint of slipknot! in one of those jams so it may have been incubating for quite some time before it shows up in those Eyes jams in 74.

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

One of the things that I love about the Dead is that the creative process really does take place right out there on stage, even if it sometimes took years to reach its potential.

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Poster: Earl B. Powell Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Good post Gil. Your reasoning is precisely why there should be an archive. Not only did the band have an evolution, but a good many of the songs did too. Not to mention that songs like Touch were in live rotation long before they appeared on any published work. The only true way to get a feel for the linear growth of the band and the tunes is to do exactly what you've done.

Not to make your monmental task any larger, but squeezing in some Riders, JGB and Bobby & the Midnites along the timeline would be illuminating in the same way. An example I just DL'd for this purpose was the PERRO sessions, where Garcia was in the midst of bringing "Loser" and "eep hour" up to snuff for recording.

Anyway, keep up the good work, we'll expect a very long essay once you reach the end in 1977 or 79 depending on who you ask.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 9, 2007 7:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: EYES OF THE WORLD = SLIPKNOT!

the earliest knot according to deadbase is 6/20/74 out of eyes....

however is there ANY DOUBT that slipknot was not borne ENTIRELY and OF A PIECE with Eyes of the World?.....the slipknot segue was built into eyes from the beginning as is evidenced in the premier Eyes of the World Performance:

gd73-02-09.sbd.allred.9888.sbeok.shnf d2t08

AGAIN, we see it to be such a beautiful thing -- a collective group improvisation that evolved over 30 years...everything from the nitty grittiest little detail to the wall of sound to the light shows and slideshows and outdoor locations, the venues they chose and the setlists -- it was all of a single piece, one cloth woven over time...apparent in the amazing highs and lows the band went through and the joyous wild ecstasy we felt going to the shows...they labored freely before us, and said nothing more than "go ahead...take it" ....because they were too busy making it day by day to worry long about one instance of it's appearance....if you listen closely enough, everything bursts into bloom and decay ...in plainsight....EVERYTHING YOU HEAR IS TRUE, the whole is created without illusion, that is the kernel........

this version contains a slightly more articulated slipknot from about 6 weeks later:

gd73-03-28.sbd-aud.cotsman.11473.sbeok.shnf d3t03

(listen at 9:10 in........)

This post was modified by He Live's on 2007-11-09 07:31:51

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2007-11-09 15:22:39

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Poster: deadhead66 Date: Nov 9, 2007 8:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: "Eyes of the World" vis-à-vis "Slipknot!"

This is a commonly held misconception. There is no connection between the instrumental coda and modulated jam at the end of '73-'74 versions of "Eyes of the World" and "Slipknot!" They are two different pieces of music, with different melodies, different chord structures, different key changes, and different rhythms. "Slipknot!" is always transitional, whereas the "Eyes" coda/jam can be transitional or terminal (as it is in the "Eyes" encore from Providence 6/26/74).

Jude Gold apparently appended his transcription of "Slipknot!" to his November 2005 Guitar Player article entitled "Remembering the Music, Vibe, and Guitars of Jerry Garcia." I have not seen a transcription of the "Eyes of the World" coda/jam, but I'm sure one exists. Comparison of these transcriptions would reveal visually what transpires aurally upon comparative listening (and is immediately apparent to a guitarist upon comparative playing): these are two different pieces of music.

Best to all,
deadhead66

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Poster: yesss! Date: Nov 9, 2007 9:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: 'Eyes of the World' vis-à-vis 'Slipknot!'

right. slipknot and the eyes outro jam might sound alike, along with the middle jam from unbroken chain, but they are completely different (except when jerry actually tried to play the slipkot riff at the end of eyes, like on 6/20/74). all great jams though!

as for fire-esque pre-FOTM jams: the band played similar two chord vamps throughout their history that sounded more or less like "fire", but i think the real genesis of the song was "happiness is drumming" from the diga rhythm band album. to me, though, the earliest and most fire-esque jam is somewhere in the middle of the watkins glen soundcheck. it's pretty much fire minus the envelope filter.

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 9, 2007 8:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: YOU"RE RIGHT Re: 'Eyes of the World' vis-à-vis 'Slipknot!'

yeah you're right...i can not find a better instance than the one i cited above, at 9:10 on that one version.....and i have heard other versions where jerry noodles some very slipknot type riffs on the eyes outro....but NO, it is not slipknot

the proper slipknot riff that is played at the beginning and end of the jam is never played explicitly in eyes of the world. the nebulous "tension/release" building vibe in the middle section of slipknot however is very similar to the eyes outro.

GOOD CALL....i knew it a was tenuous claim

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Poster: caspersvapors Date: Nov 8, 2007 11:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: EYES OF THE WORLD = SLIPKNOT!

nice info, check out the warm up jam in the soundcheck for 2/24/74

what chorus does that sound like to you?

theres all kinds of shit like that, you can hear bobby playing the WRS prelude in songs as early as 71

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 9, 2007 8:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: EYES OF THE WORLD = SLIPKNOT!

oooh...tough one on that warm up jam...the only thing i can come up with is...the middle jam in estimated prophet?....yeah, i think that is it, it seems to be in 7....

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Nov 9, 2007 8:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: EYES OF THE WORLD = SLIPKNOT!

20 minutes into the opening Jam on 10/10/68 is the unmistakable birth of fire on the mountain, you cant miss it!

18 minutes into the 11/7/69 Dark Star is an UJB Jam which is well defined but only 1:49 long. This show is dynamite, by the way, I prefer it to DP#16 from the following night...

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 8, 2007 11:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: EYES OF THE WORLD = SLIPKNOT!

exactly...i know i have heard shows where bobby is noodling WRPS prelude between songs but they dont play it....

like, if you are playing 80-100+ shows a year plus soundchecks, even if you don't practice as a band on top of that, you are playing music together A LOT, for long stretches of time, and thus MUSICALLY, you are constantly working on the same body of work, the same art, the same language being spoken inperpetuity for the duration of 30 years...

and these guys all knew all along how special it was just by virtue of the uniqueness of the enterprise, that no matter how miserable their lives were or how they frustrated each other, inevitably...they had to keep coming together because they knew they had made it SO GOOOOOOD up to any given point, that keeping it going a little longer, they most likely stood to make it better still!!

so lucky they... to have persued their vision so tirelessly. a FINE life's work INDEED.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Nov 9, 2007 4:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: SLIPKNOT! = Dark Star?

Check out the "uncle johns jam" in the middle of this Dark Star nearly 5 years before that first EYES.

http://www.archive.org/details/gd69-11-07.sbd.kaplan.19783.sbefail.shnf

Same with a Fire on the Mountain which can be heard in a jam in this show:

http://www.archive.org/details/gd68-10-10.sbd.miller-ladner.4513.sbeok.shnf

Their jamming and improvising seem to lead them in many places often years before these little turns in a song or jam would develop into its own entity.

This post was modified by elbow1126 on 2007-11-09 12:13:49

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Poster: He Live's Date: Nov 9, 2007 7:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: FEELIN GROOVY JAM, Re: SLIPKNOT! = Dark Star?

hey elbow!...

i have thought that that was UJB popping up in dark star before too, but isn't it the "FEELIN GROOVY" JAM we're hearing? like the same descending pattern bobby often dropped in before rider:

gd74-06-16.sbd.fink.17701.sbeok.shnf d2t02

as for the fire you heard in the matrix show, i couldn't find it in a quick survey but i am sure it must be there somewhere....was this a HEARTBEATS SHOW? i don't hear bobby, and they mostly just jam. (and mostly, when the jams get rolling along, phil seems to keep going into caution/otherone....and in that, you get a sense of how much better and more complete the dead were, even in 1968, with all of the members present....bobby and pig had their faults, but here we can see they were sorely missed....)

i was always under the impression that Fire on the Mt. was at least half Mickey's tune...i think they had been toying with it informally for years before the hunter lyrics came along and it got married to scarlet begonias......?

This post was modified by He Live's on 2007-11-09 16:04:49

This post was modified by Diana Hamilton on 2007-11-09 15:20:53

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Nov 9, 2007 8:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: FEELIN GROOVY JAM, Re: SLIPKNOT! = Dark Star?

In the case of this Dark Star it is definitely UJB. I love those late 73-74 China>Rider transitions but this is not one of them. Definitely check out 11/7/69 it really is a great show and the boys are clearly having fun while performing that night.

I think that 10/10 show is a Hartbeats show and I see that Cliff has already told you where to find the Fire in it (he told me before when I brought up the issue of Fire too!!). As for missing Bobby and Pig, I have to say that the shows on 10-12 and 10-13 are amongst my favorite and while Bobby is back, Pig is not. I don't really miss his organ in the dark stars either.

I think these little snippets of songs you here in these late 60s jams are just that; an improv or solo that sticks in their minds. They then seem to get incorporated into other jams like the slipknot! in Eyes in 73-74 or Fire in the Scarlet jams of 74-76 before developing into stand alone songs, in this case in 75 and 77. So Jerry plays something in 68 that Mickey may have helped him turn into a song by 77.

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Poster: Death&Mercy Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

GSET is a rare 1st set tune that got worse as the boys went along. listen to a Promised Land, Sugaree, Big River, Loser, 1/2 Step, or a Music Never Stopped - all that stuff turned into something bigger over the years (as the 2nd set tunes turned into something lesser). not the GSET though. Jerry was more than capable of playing those St Steve type riffs in 1980. I wonder why he chose not to?

and thanks for the post gila58. share some more of your thoughts throughout your journey.

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Ah, that is a mystery. GSET was not the only tune that could have been turned into a jumping off point for a monster jam but never did. At least it didn't evaporate into the ether like Mason's Children. I'll never really understand why that song was never resurrected. Viola Lee Blues, same thing. How would that have been as a second set opener in, say, '78? What would have been the harm in hearing Sampson and Delilah a few less times?

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Poster: abilene22 Date: Nov 8, 2007 7:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Hats off to ya!

I'm curious about They Love Each Other. First heard around '73; was it played slow or up-tempo when it appeared? When was the evolution to the slower version? I like both styles just fine, but the fast rockin' TLEO is a kick in the ass.

Maybe the answer lies ahead of you...

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 8:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

It was definitely uptempo when it debuted and it rocked! They played it a lot in '73, less in '74. I don't think they slowed it down until after the break.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

GM58--if you recall, I loved your name, and have not forgotten your Herculean task...thanks for checking in. I agree completely with BD that you now have responsibilities that come with great endeavors...sad, but I have found it true. No good deed should go unheraled.

Your insight on StSt was right on...keep it up.

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Sounds like a righteous undertaking, I'm sure lots of us here will be awaiting your next update. Cool post. I've wondered what it would be like to listen 'chronologically' but it just seems way to daunting at this point in my busy life.

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Being able to stream at work certainly helps.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Nov 8, 2007 3:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I think you are obligated to write a lenghty treatise once you reach the end of your odyessy. I must admit, it sounds like a really cool effort and I bet it really does give you an unique insight into, and appreciation for, the development of the band and songs over time.

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Thanks bluedevil. It has been rewarding and never tedious, even when set lists didn't vary much. Very few bands had the balls to completely transform themselves but that is basically what they did from '70 to '73. In '69, they were one of the heaviest bands on the planet. By '71, they were a country/folk/rock band. It wasn't until '72-'74 that they became the Grateful Dead most people think of.

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Poster: northstar dead Date: Nov 9, 2007 5:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

This is one of the finest posts I have read here. Kudos to you and all the great other posts.
This is why we all keep coming back to this place, although you have to sift through some B/S from time to time.

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Poster: snori Date: Nov 9, 2007 6:56am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I agree N.D. All these posts have me searching out the claims made for earlier hints and trials that lead up to a more finished (though still evolving) piece and it's place between HOTW and FT.

I like coming across the early UJB riffs that floated in and out of jams way before there were lyrics and a more complete form. This is exactly what this forum (library) should be about.

Fair play to you GM, look forward to reports of other sightings of acorns on your long, strange trip.

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

while i can't give you an answer about evolving songs, I can say your project is cool. I tried to do something like that awhile back and I pulled the ripcord along the way, much like trying the the "100 beer club" one weekend back in college. The idea was there....execution that was another matter.

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I've been sorely tempted to veer into a tasty Spring '77 every once in awhile but have thus far resisted the temptation. It gives me a goal to shoot for. I'm not sure I have what it takes to make it through the Nineties but I'm sure there are still gems to be had. My all time favorite Stella Blue is from Ohio in '94 (or is it '92?)

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Poster: lobster12 Date: Nov 8, 2007 4:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

94. you'll find many stella's from this year to be emotional. My fav is shoreline sept 94.

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Poster: Toadsmoker Date: Nov 8, 2007 7:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

everything was broken in 94, that's very emotional for everyone. Throwing Stones evolved into a Statement by 1990.....uncle john's evolved beyond siblings.

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Poster: WHARFRAT Date: Nov 8, 2007 5:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

Hey gila, I remeber that you were doing this long task.
Nice to see you back again. Just one question.
How many shows a day or say a week are you doing?

Great post. Please keep us up to date as your journey progresses. AT LEAST YOU'RE ENJOYING THE RIDE!!!

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Poster: gilamonster58 Date: Nov 8, 2007 6:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Slipknot!

I'm going to say somewhere in the neighborhood of six or seven. Sometimes I go on binges and it could be as high as nine in a week. Sometimes I have to work away from my desk and can't listen to any. I rarely listen at all on weekends... at least not to full shows.

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